I'll be sending you a PM warning against the dangers of immoderate use of alcohol.
Open mind
JoinedPosts by Open mind
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59
JW Witnessing Trolleys. To approach or ignore what is your preference and why?
by KateWild ini saw two brothers this morning next to the main train station in liverpool city centre this morning.
they were not actively approaching anyone.
what i found strange was that they were from a cong that has different territory, so i don't know why they were there.. anyway i knew them both, and they know i was df'd, i was in my car and couldn't park up for a chat, but i did beep and wave to them as i drove passed and they waved back.
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Open mind
Heaven: "I think they haven't arrived in full force in Canada yet."
Well, maybe not full force, but they were parked across the street from a Toronto sex toy shop last October.
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/social/humour/265399/1/Perfect-spot-for-street-preaching
om
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105
Is my clinging on to a belief in a Creator doing me any harm?
by KateWild ini use the word clinging, as i feel that is what i am doing.
as far as my knowledge of science, namely chemistry is concerned, i am satisfied there is evidence of a creator.
i am happy to believe this.
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Open mind
to Data-Dog on the "Modern Jesus" song!!
Well worth a listen while reading the lyrics!
(Adding "liars" and "choirs" to my list of rhyming words.)
om
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22
My fading files volume III
by Jon Preston inwell its been a while since my doubts were first realized.
ive been through hell mentally, but no where near what some on this site and those lurking have been through.
i got lucky, if you believe in that sort of thing.
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Open mind
Beautifully said!
(except for the salvation part, but that's just me)
om
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Open mind
It's only about 7:37 pm on the U.S. East Coast. If you hurry you can still make a low-attendance 9 o'clock show!
om
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24
A suggestion for Fading Dubs. STOP SINGING!!!
by DATA-DOG inwhether or not you realize it [ many of you do ], words have power.
think of the power of the human voice.
think of a beautiful song, or a symphony.
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Open mind
Here are a couple of alternative ideas re: "Amen" and the singing of WT anthems.
1. Amen. Substitute it with "Gay men". Jack up your volume commensurate with the occasion and the audience. Have fun!
2. Singing. I decided to try singing with my best Elvis impersonation regardless of the song. And, just like "gay men" above, I would adjust my volume depending on who was around.
Hey, it helped pass the time.
None of us attend anymore and I'll probably be the only one attending the Memorial this year.
om
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52
GB's letter regarding UN membership - How Do You Prove Them Wrong?
by will-be-apostate ini was reading brant jones' experience (published on jwfacts.com).
i read both letters: the one he wrote to the gb and the one he recieved from them.
link: http://jwfacts.com/watchtower/experiences/brantjonesunresponse.pdf.
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Open mind
Marked.
om
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Ex 20:11. Two big problems for WT creation tradition. What's their best shot?
by Open mind insomehow the significance of exodus 20:11 has slipped right past my critical thinking skills for several decades.
"for in six days jehovah made the heavens and the earth, the sea and everything that is in them, and he proceeded to rest on the seventh day.
that is why jehovah blessed the sabbath day and proceeded to make it sacred.".
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Open mind
Hmmm.
This big brown log has been sitting here for over 24 hours...
FLUSH!!!!
Not sure why this particular piece of JW illogic caught my attention anyway. Just add it to the list.
om
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101
The Last BOE!
by Atlantis inthis is the last boe we will be able to provide.
our informant or source, was caught, disfellowshipped, and thrown out of bethel.
we knew that sooner or later the watchtower would find him out.
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Open mind
Add one more voice to the chorus of sincere appreciation.
Doing what he did, where he did took a whole lot of intestinal fortitude.
I've got a late-teens nephew-in-law who just last year let my son (Torn In Two Son) know that he knows JWism is just so much equine fecal matter. His dad is an elder. I'll make some inquiries re: the possibility of getting BOE copies.
om
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Ex 20:11. Two big problems for WT creation tradition. What's their best shot?
by Open mind insomehow the significance of exodus 20:11 has slipped right past my critical thinking skills for several decades.
"for in six days jehovah made the heavens and the earth, the sea and everything that is in them, and he proceeded to rest on the seventh day.
that is why jehovah blessed the sabbath day and proceeded to make it sacred.".
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Open mind
Somehow the significance of Exodus 20:11 has slipped right past my critical thinking skills for several decades.
"For in six days Jehovah made the heavens and the earth, the sea and everything that is in them, and he proceeded to rest on the seventh day. That is why Jehovah blessed the sabbath day and proceeded to make it sacred."
This verse, along with verses 8-10 which are logically linked with it, presents two big problems for Watchtower theology.
1. It clearly states that the creation of the "heavens and the earth" happened within the "six days", not before.
2. The wording in Exodus 20:8-11 sure sounds like the "days" are all the same: literal, 24 hour days. Exodus 20:8-10 Is talking all about the sabbath, a literal 24 hour day. There's no segue or change in context. It just goes straight into verse 11:"For in six days Jehovah made the heavens and the earth, the sea and everything that is in them, ...".
The writer is clearly drawing a parallel between these "days". There is nothing in the wording to suggest that the reader, when moving from verse 10 to verse 11, should now mentally jump from 24 hour days to 7,000 year (or longer?) "creative days" and then back to 24 hour days at the end of verse 11. And yet, that is exactly what a true-believing JW is asked to do.
How in the world did I miss this all these years? (On second thought, please ignore that question. That topic has already been disected at length on plenty of other threads.)
What I'd really like to know is what is the best job that the Watchtower has done at explaining these verses away? I've done a search of earlier JWN threads and found this reference from "undercover" about 3 years ago. It's an Awake! article from September, 2006. (If you dont' feel like reading the whole lame thing, just skip down to my take on it below.)
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/192068/1/Age-of-Adam#.UyN8cc6KKmY
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http://www.watchtower.org/e/200609a/article_01.htm
MANY people claim that science disproves the Bible’s account of creation. But the real contradiction is between science and, not the Bible, but the opinions of so-called Christian Fundamentalists. Some of these groups falsely assert that according to the Bible, all physical creation was produced in six 24-hour days some 10,000 years ago.
The Bible, however, does not support such a conclusion. If it did, then many scientific discoveries over the past hundred years would indeed discredit the Bible. A careful study of the Bible text reveals no conflict with established scientific facts. For that reason, Jehovah’s Witnesses disagree with “Christian” Fundamentalists and many creationists. The following shows what the Bible really teaches.
When Was “the Beginning”?
The Genesis account opens with the simple, powerful statement: “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” (Genesis 1:1) Bible scholars agree that this verse describes an action separate from the creative days recounted from verse 3 onward. The implication is profound. According to the Bible’s opening statement, the universe, including our planet Earth, was in existence for an indefinite time before the creative days began.
Geologists estimate that the earth is approximately 4 billion years old, and astronomers calculate that the universe may be as much as 15 billion years old. Do these findings—or their potential future refinements—contradict Genesis 1:1? No. The Bible does not specify the actual age of “the heavens and the earth.” Science does not disprove the Biblical text.
How Long Were the Creative Days?
What about the length of the creative days? Were they literally 24 hours long? Some claim that because Moses—the writer of Genesis—later referred to the day that followed the six creative days as a model for the weekly Sabbath, each of the creative days must be literally 24 hours long. (Exodus 20:11) Does the wording of Genesis support this conclusion?
No, it does not. The fact is that the Hebrew word translated “day” can mean various lengths of time, not just a 24-hour period. For example, when summarizing God’s creative work, Moses refers to all six creative days as one day. (Genesis 2:4) In addition, on the first creative day, “God began calling the light Day, but the darkness he called Night.” (Genesis 1:5) Here, only a portion of a 24-hour period is defined by the term “day.” Certainly, there is no basis in Scripture for arbitrarily stating that each creative day was 24 hours long.
How long, then, were the creative days? The wording of Genesis chapters 1 and 2 indicates that considerable lengths of time were involved.
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Basically, all I see WT doing here is throwing the Exodus 20:11 problem on the table and then saying "Hey! Look over here in Genesis".
No, WT. Let's stay right here in Exodus. According to WT, Moses wrote both Genesis and Exodus. And in Exodus he clearly states that the universe was created within the six creative days.
He also doesn't give any indication that the "days" involved in the sabbath law are any different than the "days" in which God created the Universe.
The more I read it, the more it seems to me that the Bible's references to creation call for literal 24 hour creative days.
Anyway, my bottom line question is this: Is the September 2006 Awake! article the best attempt WT has made at explaining Exodus 20:11?Thanks,
om
p.s. For those who don't have a Bible or feel like looking it up, here's Ex 20: 7-12 so you can see the context. It's in the middle of the Ten Commandments.
Exodus 20:7 You must not take up the name of Jehovah your God in a worthless way, for Jehovah will not leave the one unpunished who takes up his name in a worthless way.
20:8 Remembering the sabbath day to hold it sacred, 20:9 you are to render service and you must do all your work six days. 20:10 But the seventh day is a sabbath to Jehovah your God. You must not do any work, you nor your son nor your daughter, your slave man nor your slave girl nor your domestic animal nor your alien resident who is inside your gates. 20:11 For in six days Jehovah made the heavens and the earth, the sea and everything that is in them, and he proceeded to rest on the seventh day. That is why Jehovah blessed the sabbath day and proceeded to make it sacred.
20:12 Honor your father and your mother in order that your days may prove long upon the ground that Jehovah your God is giving you.
IMO, Verse 7 stands alone. Verses 8-11 all go together. Verse 12 stands alone.
